Inside Zone?

[BruinFB]

Does anyone incorporate inside zone to their Hybrid Wing?  

I think it would be difficult for a defense to defend buck, trap, belly, etc. and a Zone play.  Watching Army vs. Navy, both teams incorporate a lot of zone now (especially against each other).  I don't think zone is good against every defense, but the teams that read blocking schemes and react laterally to our down blocks can give us trouble...Zone may be a better way to attack such defenses.

We play a couple of very well-coached, old-school 5-2 teams and I think it is the toughest defense that we play against.  I can see how inside zone to the FB could be a solid play against this defense.  So far we have incorporated Bear/Bull stuff (trap influence, Belly, Belly Rocket) and regular rocket and jet, as well as end-over Bucksweep against this Defense.  We have had some success with these, but typically when we play teams that have great players and are well-coached reading 5-2's it can be tough sledding (I know...it's shocking that talented players that are well coached give us trouble).  

I'm just thinking that perhaps Inside Zone could give us another answer to those odd front teams that read well.  Is it too difficult to teach Inside Zone along with all of the stuff that we already do?

[BruinFB]

I know when I coached in a "flexbone" system, we used Zone Dive as a compliment to teams that used a Squeeze and Scrape technique against our Veer.  But it seems like the Military Academies are using it more now as a way to combat nose tackles that are reading the Center and overplaying to the playside.  And today, they both used Zone as a way to have their QB's carry the ball.

[buckeye7525]

Coach, the time it would take to get good at the IZ combos that you need to have would be my concern, like you said just having enough time to make sure that they are good enough at them to have success.  In college we were an IZ/OZ scheme and those combos were something we worked every darn day.  

[CTCoach]

We use zone concept's on the backide of our down belly and blast play's as our base rule u here G and ice and your on backside of play your zoning to playside never changes. youll be surprised how many of those play's bend back for big yards work's great for us.

[BruinFB]

On 12/11/2017 at 12:10 PM, buckeye7525 said:

Coach, the time it would take to get good at the IZ combos that you need to have would be my concern, like you said just having enough time to make sure that they are good enough at them to have success.  In college we were an IZ/OZ scheme and those combos were something we worked every darn day.  

Thanks Coach.... I agree, that would be the main concern.  I think that the flexbone teams (especially those that play against each other all the time and know the system so well) do it because the opponent is so dialed in to stop the option stuff, that the zone becomes difficult to defend.  I would imagine the same would hold true for teams trying to defend Wing and Zone, but you are right, we must be concerned with ourselves and having the time to practice and get good at something.  This offense is difficult enough to get our linemen doing it well.  

[dwinger65]

sort of off topic.  BUT - I have watch "zone teams" and some seem to run the inside zone more finesse, while others really seem to get after the double teams vertically.  Has anyone else ever noticed this?  Im wondering if there are two distinct ways IZ is being taught.  Just to clarify - Im not mixing up IZ and OZ.  Im only talking IZ.  just seems like there are two schools of how its done.  Im not a big fan of wholesale zone teams but if i were ever to run IZ it would be the nasty vertical double team version.

[coachmcg]

I have run Tony DeMeo's triple gun offense before and it was zone blocking using the double team version you are referring to.  The blocking rule is to double team unless someone threatens your gap.  By using smart splits it was actually pretty easy for the OL to execute and easier than I thought it would be, but it still hits to slow....

 

DE    DT             N                DE

      LT  LG       C  RG         RT

 

If I wasn't currently in love with the Single Wing, smart splits and IZ/Gun Veer would be in my offense using the above splits.

 

 

[Karjaw]

"I think it would be difficult for a defense to defend buck, trap, belly, etc. and a Zone play.  Watching Army vs. Navy, both teams incorporate a lot of zone now (especially against each other).  I don't think zone is good against every defense, but the teams that read blocking schemes and react laterally to our down blocks can give us trouble...Zone may be a better way to attack such defenses."

Coach

I have spent a quite of bit of time with both programs the last few years  and especially Army because it is right down the road. Here are some of my observations:

YEAR ONE:

Army was installing TRIPLE...TRIPLE....TRIPLE and did I say TRIPLE. No zone until late into the season.

YEAR TWO

Midline Triple...Midline Triple....Midline Triple did I say Midline Triple. No zone as an emphasis.

YEAR THREE

ZONE....ZONE....ZONE did I say ZONE. Still using Triple and Midline but not as much of an emphasis. Both Navy and Army claim this is now the best play in their offense and I can see why. It has answers and poses huge problems for offenses. it is not like Pro Zone schemes.

Something to consider:

1. How much does it cost? They do not run Buck or Belly sweeps (Their expensive plays and so is Zone)

2. Why is any play in your offense? (As a result of a defensive response or getting a key player the ball or speed in space or some other reason)

3. When are you going to call it? (only when you need an answer to a defensive response or consistent way to get the ball to a specific player or specific part of a front etc.)

Here is my opinion not any facts other than what I been told by coaches from these institutions:

Zone was put in as an answer to a defensive response, but later evolved into a play to get a specific player the ball into the largest gap a defense has to defend with a direct option when your player cannot block a force defender. 

FYI: When they are asked why they do not throw the ball their response is we do and we do it a lot. Especially when we pitch it to our Slot backs. So in other words they view Zone as another pass play for them.

Hope it helps

Coach Wright 

 

[BruinFB]

7 hours ago, Karjaw said:

 

ZONE....ZONE....ZONE did I say ZONE. Still using Triple and Midline but not as much of an emphasis. Both Navy and Army claim this is now the best play in their offense and I can see why. It has answers and poses huge problems for offenses. it is not like Pro Zone schemes.

     Coach,

When you say it is not like Pro Zone schemes, how do you mean?  Did you get any specifics on how they taught it and what made it different?  

I think that the answer to question #1 (How much does it cost) is the reason we do not incorporate inside zone.  We do run bucksweep, rocket, belly, trap, and down... and do not really have the time to teach zone correctly and run it effectively.  It is interesting to see the evolution of the service academies and their emphasis on zone.

 

 

 

[Karjaw]

Coach

Their teaching of zone and evolution of it is the simplest I have ever seen and one of the best parts they do and probably the biggest thing I dislike about zone is the concept 

"Slow to Fast thru"

They do not do this. They are exact opposite Fast to and Fast thru. 

Hope it helps

Coach Wright 

 

[coachbob]

I don't know who wrote this but it's in the language of this offense. 

1) Our center identifies the front (30,40, bear). Our responsibilities depend on the front, and we make our calls based off of that. If the guards don't have anyone on them in any technique at all, then it's a 30 (odd front) If either of the guards are covered by a DT, it's a 40. If center and both guards are covered by a NT and 2 DT

RULES: "A" and "DEUCE" vs. a 40 front......."B" and "ACE" vs. 30 front………."A" and "DRIVE" vs. BEAR front THAT SIMPLE! 

******Essentially, this becomes a lead/trail combo. The PS guy is covered, while the BS guy is the catch-up/uncovered man who takes a flat step and reads the knee of the DL to see if he is getting a true double-team or working up the the assigned LB.

COMBOS DEFINED (REMEMBER: PS guy in combo is lead, BS guy is trail or "catch-up":
"B" = double-team with PSG and PST (they share B gap...get it?) 
"A" = double-team with C and PSG (they share A gap)
"ACE" = double-team with BSG and C 
"DEUCE" = double-team with BST and BSG

2. Next, the center identifies the "0", which is the first LB in the box to the play-side. That is the guy our play-side combo ("A" or "B", depending on the front) works to with the double team. The next guy LB backside from the Mike (zero) is the -1 LB, and our backside combo ("ACE" or "DEUCE", depending on the front) works to him. 

**Obviously, we don't come off of the double-team unless the LB runs downhill in our gap or gets within a foot of the DL's heels. Otherwise, we put the DL in the LB's lap.



So, versus a:


40 front:
PST - base
PSG - runs "A" combo with C to 0 LB (first in box)
C - runs "A" combo with PSG to 0 LB 
BSG - runs "DEUCE" combo with BST to -1 LB (2nd in box)
BST - runs "DEUCE" combo with BSG to -1 LB

30 front:
PST: runs "B" combo with PSG to 0 LB
PSG: runs "B" combo with PST to 0 LB
C: runs "ACE" combo with BSG to -1 LB
BSG: runs "ACE" combo with C to -1 LB
BST: takes path of least resistance to -2 LB (2nd LB back from Mike) 
 

BEAR front:
PST - base
PSG - runs "A" combo with C to 0 LB (first in box)
C - runs "A" combo with PSG to 0 LB 
BSG - drive man over center
BST - drive man over inside teammate 

plenty of ways to kill bear other then inside zone.

[buckeye7525]

Jim, why can they be so fast to the hole and still be solid at the zone play (Army, that is)? 

[RAIDERZ]

I know this is an old thread, but it’s an interesting topic.  I don’t want to major in zone, but I could see how a relatively quick hitting zone dive could be a good compliment in the hybrid wing, particularly from the gun.  Interested in hearing more from others who have done it / tried it.  

[buckeye7525]

Coach, there was a really good explanation from Coach Wright about the applicability of Zone Dive in this offense we had on this thread.  I

[RAIDERZ]

Yes...some good stuff there.

Some teams are doing a lot with H-backs in running IZ, Power/Counter.  With the H-back blocking the backside of Split Zone (either same side seal or crossing the formation to seal the backside), kicking out on Power, and crossing the formation to lead on counter), the scheme can be very deceptive.  Add Jet and Power Read to the equation and its gets very interesting.  In most cases, I think these teams are hanging their hat on IZ and protecting it with the other plays (including PAPs).

Just wondering if you could flip the idea - building your offense around Jet & Power and using IZ/Zone Dive as a formation friendly way to way to hit inside.  We’ve run Jet and Power (including Gap scheme counters) well in the past.  We’ve also been effective with PAP.  So...it does not seem crazy (at first glance) to consider the approach.  Btw, this assumes operating mostly from the Gun and a willingness to run the QB 5-10 times per game.

Anyway...playing with some ideas and interested in learning from others.

What are the challenges/issues with running IZ / zone dive?

if you were going to do it, how would you go about it?

Thanks.

 

[RAIDERZ]

And btw, I am not talking about running Auburn’s offense...

....thinking about employing some of the ideas in the hybrid wing...

...multi formation, compressed sets, TE on the field most off the time, 4 back run game, etc...

[buckeye7525]

Raiderz, what formations are you planning on using?  

[RAIDERZ]

Would have the ability to use a lot of formations.  Red/Blue Gun, Cowboy Gun, Robin/Eagle Gun, Empty, etc...  Bear/Bull would be an important part of the equation.  Not looking to be in 3/4 wide receiver sets much  Run game IZ, Power, Counters & Jet.  Would want to run Power to the split side and tight end side.

[CoachSpencer82]

Mostly gun wing-t team this year, we go under center red/blue some.  We're rebuilding and nearly pulled off a big upset last night running our bastardized version of inside zone.  This team was not going to let us run bucksweep, although it still hit for a couple of nice gains when I started trading the TE/Wing, but the zone was our best strong side run of the game.  We ran it mostly with jet motion to the quick side, it helps we have a decent RB. 

[buckeye7525]

CoachSpencer, I'd be interested to hear how you created a cheap version of Inside Zone. 

[CoachSpencer82]

Only ran it strong, told QT, QG, C, they were just scoop blocking, then taught strong side scoop rules.  Usually ran it with jet mo away, didn't live and die with it, but a good way to just get a hat on a hat and give it to your best kid to gain a few yards.